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Post by bbmarc on May 16, 2007 19:25:05 GMT -5
Actualy in the context of the argument presented silence does in fact mean confession. The reason is that his entire argument is that there are either other formats to deal with the problem, or that the problem shouldn't be discussed because of the traditions (it isn't stated which ones, but we are informed if we knew the traditions we wouldn't be talking). Both of these arguments are irrelivant if the problem didn't exist, and conserned is in a position to know the inner workings of midtown, as am I, and many other people who have done more than just meet a couple of people at parent functions.
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Post by RD on May 16, 2007 20:08:35 GMT -5
BB, Silence does not mean what you and the rest of the people on FOM are saying is true. No, the fact that it's true is what makes it true. As an aside, how many different user names are you going to make up for this one thread?
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Post by RD on May 16, 2007 20:16:53 GMT -5
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Post by Frederick on May 17, 2007 9:31:20 GMT -5
It doesn't look like NBC is letting go of this story anytime soon and they must have reporters actively pursuing leads. It seems that they also want to bring this story to its logical conclusion. I imagine that all the media attention is reinvigorating any on-going criminal investigations as well and I wouldn't be suprised if someone in the Midtown's leadership doesn't get charged with a sexual felony charge before long. A civil action suit sounds like a possible scenario as well. I'm glad there's quite a few of you who continue to bring outside attention to this story in order to not let it die down because if you allow these creeps to hide behind the Traditions and cowardice of the AA leadership in New York, this sad story will continue...
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Post by Curious on May 17, 2007 12:06:32 GMT -5
I was always taught to not believe everything that I read – to try and look at things from all angels and look at underlying motives. With that in mind, I have come up with some questions regarding this controversy.
Why have no individuals in the MG been officially charged with any crimes? Surely a group of that size that has been accused of raping so many children over such a long time span would have been indicted of some crime? If someone has been indicted and convicted of one of these crimes who are they, what did they do and when did it happen?
Why is it that both the Newsweek article and TV reports state that the authorities have found no evidence of any criminal wrong doing?
Why has no one come forward and named names, times and places? Not in the article, not in the TV reports and not even in any of the postings or blogs has anyone said something to the effect of “my name is Joe Brown and when I was in the group John Doe told me that he had sex with the then 15 year old Jane Smith.
If any of these allegations are true, why are people relying on rumor and hearsay? Who are the people, what specifically did they do and when did they do it? The facts… where are the facts? Truth is the absolute defense to slander and libel, so why be afraid to come forward and state your case in verifiable way?
I remain skeptical of FOM’s motives until I see some hard facts to support their allegations.
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Post by bbmarc on May 17, 2007 12:58:46 GMT -5
Great point, on the sex crimes I don't have personal experience. But when I was involved in the group Mike Q's Girlfriend was 17 and less than a year sober (not illegal in maryland, but very illegal in virginia.). This was even joked about during the sunday speeker meeting when one of his lutenets talked aabout dating a 20 year old while he was married and stated "I guess I chose the right sponsor" *audiance laughs*.
Now about the cult stuff I do have direct experience with. To be in midtown you need a midtown sponsor (somthing I have never seen in any group). The midtown linage ends at Mike Q (a charismatic leader who has authority over the whole rule #1 of cult), they tell their members that they have to stay sober through midtown (krisenas story newsweek article, many other personal accounts, rule #2 of cult). Most people don't find out about Mile Q 's leadership of the group untill they have been in for a while, or his bizzar definition of service work (I have to wash my own car, mow my own lawn, buy my own food and stuff and that helps me stay sober...Mike Q tells people to do these things for him, and they will stay sober... This is called a hidden agenda rule #3). And they seperate the new alcoholic from anything not midtown (personal accounts to numorous to mention Rule #4).
Now if you say that personal accounts are to bias, that will abolish any evedance whatsoever on either side thus negating the existance of reality untill unbias proof can be found to its existance. People in hawii know about the Q cult, people in clevland, in california, and this was before the newsweek article came out, so the evidance and personal experience has been overwelming for years, but every time someone tryes to tell their story they are informed that they are biased (which is an adhominum falicy in logic...I think I have pointed that out a few times).
The sex crimes are important, but the main issue is that there is a cult praying on people who are suseptable to sudjestion, and we need to fight that injustace as well.
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Post by RD on May 17, 2007 13:40:42 GMT -5
Responsible news organizations are rightly cautious about naming private individuals as engaged in criminal behavior who have not been charged.
There are criminal investigations going on now, and specific information and names are part of those investigations.
I disagree that the criminal behavior is not the most important part of this. It is the one thing can and should be addressed and stopped with surety if it is going.
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Post by guest on May 17, 2007 14:26:19 GMT -5
The practice of older men having sex with teenage girls in the Midtown group is, in my opinion, the worst part of this entire situation.
I know this was certainly a practice in the mid-90s, by men who are still part of the group today. I will not name names or give specifics because: 1. it would potentially humiliate the victims, who should be able to choose their own time and forum for disclosure. Their sexual histories should not be revealed on a message board by a third party. 2. the victims I know of actually were 16 at the time, which doesn't make for statutory rape in maryland (where all parties resided and all actions took place, to my knowledge). Therefore my information cannot help in a legal investigation, unfortunately.
A man in his thirties having a sexual relationship with a sixteen year old is disgusting under any circumstances - despite the poorly written DC and maryland statutory rape laws (fifteen?). The fact that this type of behavior has been condoned by the midtown group for years is what most strongly motivates my support for FOM.
Again, no one will deny that this behavior was/is a part of the midtown/mike q group - because they cannot.
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Post by anon on May 17, 2007 14:51:01 GMT -5
Part of the reason people have been warning Mike Q and his group for YEARS about the dangers of sposoring the opposite sex, is precisely because of these sorts of allegations and "slander."
If you are an older man who sponors lots of young women (some underage), regularly have them to your home, travel with them, socialize with them, have any periods of alone time with them--then you've played your cards and taken your chances.
I'm thrilled that this is getting media attention and broader scrutiny. Many people in the area have known about this group, but haven't known what to do about it. Thank you to those who've persevered in bringing this to light.
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Post by Betsy on May 17, 2007 16:47:09 GMT -5
It still is mind boggling to me how so many people want to continue to protect AA from getting a bad name as a result of these media segments. Washington AA already has a bad name as a direct result of the Midtown Group. Hooray for Pat Collins and NBC-4. I hope he doesn't let up. AA, the AA Traditions and the Midtown Group have no standing in the courts when it comes to rape, statutory rape or any crime. All US citizens are protected by our laws, in and out of AA. I hope this eventually gets to Dateline so they can do longer and more in depth segments. I'm pretty certain that it is a matter of time before the leader or one of the lieutenants has charges filed on them. I guess that is what it is going to take to convince all of the Midtown AA skeptics. It is interesting that all of my friends that are not in AA have no problem believing all of these stories.
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Post by RD on May 17, 2007 21:30:43 GMT -5
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Post by Guest on May 18, 2007 12:56:29 GMT -5
I'm glad Pat Collins and NBC are staying with this story, and are delving more into the sexual exploitation within the group.
There was also supposed to be a follow-up story to this one on the six o'clock news, in which a woman with two daughters in the program defends Midtown. Does anyone have a link to that story or video? I couldn't find it on the NBC website.
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Post by Betsy on May 18, 2007 13:22:24 GMT -5
Go to the truthaboutmidtown.com and click the link for the latest news
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Post by Guest on May 18, 2007 14:36:39 GMT -5
The latest link on thetruthaboutmidtown.com website is to the same story as the NBC link posted above. It is in that story that Pat Collins states that there will be a follow-up interview on the 6 o'clock news with a woman who is defending midtown.
I am trying to see that follow-up interview defending midtown. If anyone has a link, I'd appreciate it.
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Post by Betsy on May 18, 2007 21:50:52 GMT -5
The follow up interview was don around 6:20. The person being interviewed refused to go on camera so it was done as a telephone interview. You can go to the WRC-4 website and get the script.
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